General => Tournaments => Topic started by: getitwet on September 21, 2012, 10:02:25 am
Title: King Of The Lake Spring and Fall
Post by: getitwet on September 21, 2012, 10:02:25 am
Well its already that time of year where we start planning for the upcoming yr.
We have had some great discussions with many of you in past on where and how the tournament scene is going. One conscensus is that they are getting too expensive for the average guy and most are only catering to the big boats and "pros". Entry fees for all tournaments have gone to a min of $650 to $1500. This has eliminated many teams. In the past 14 yrs I have seen our tournaments go from 200 to 650 and the average boat size from 20 to 30ft. We have seen prize money go from 4000 to 20000 for first, things have chaged a lot but the one thing that has not is WE STILL LOVE TO COMPETE!!.
I cant remember doing something like this in the past in a public forum. The ideas that are be proposed are ideas and not implemented and are proposed in order to include more people and encourage more participation. We would love to have more boats as our sponsors would get more exposure and thats the only way we can leverage them into more donations.
There are a lot of you that find excuses not to fish and really that is your personal decision as nobody is forcing anyone to do what they dont want to do. The excuses i here all the time is "we cant compete against the big players" I think in a 5 fish one day tournament or a 2 day 10 fish tournament we have seen many teams come for a weekend and do real well. in fact we have had them win. "too expensive for my blood" This I understand as it cost me and my team over $2500 in any tournament except for my home ports events. "I like a one day vs 2 day tournament" Again I see the trend as it evolved in the 1 day events and most would think it is easier to win because it is only one day but in fact I believe you have to have your ducks in order to compete against the big players there because you have to catch 6 fish instead of five per day. Please don't take this as a knock to the 1 day events as they are great and we need different types of competition on the lake or it would get boring.
I have some ideas I would like to propose.
300 or 400 entry fee for the weekend, based on 50 teams payout would be
For $100 or less per teamate you could participate for these kind of dollars.
2. $200 for Sat and $200 for Sun
These would be 2 stand alone tournaments on each their resppective days. You could fish 1 or 2 or all combined if you want to fish for bigger money.
Based on 30 teams
1- $3000 - 2- 1500 - 3- 750 - 4- 500 - 5- 250
Based on 50 teams
1- $5000 - 2-2500 - 3- 1500 - 4- 500 - 5- 500
You can see that these one day tournaments can provide some good returns.
If you get lucky you can take home some serious money.
Big Fish Friday is another option that we will be keeping as it has been a good event and proven that people like it. Most tournaments have duplicated the event because of its popularity and I think it gives us a reason to get out on fridays.
$50 on Friday will stand
In conclusion, these ideas are just that right now. By doing something along these lines we eliminate all excuses pretty much of why someone would not compete. For as low as $200 you can fish in the King Of The Lake! Thats awesome. It has not been as low as this since 1999. Talk about rollback!!
If you have ideas you want to share or if you have not fished it and because of this you will please let us know. I would like to keep this thread as positive as posible and not turn this into a pissing contest as i have only done this because I see many of you on the sidelines looking in and think why arent you here fishing, you guys are good fisherman, why not compete. Have some fun with it, meet new freinds and learn amongst eachother.
Have a good read a looking forward to hearing from you
Title: Re: King Of The Lake Spring and Fall
Post by: karl on September 21, 2012, 10:30:51 am
some great thoughts Yvan....it costs alot to compete and i think thats why the number of competers are less than ever.lower entrance fees would (i think) increase the number of boats thus increasing payouts.400 for the weekend would be great.
Title: Re: King Of The Lake Spring and Fall
Post by: Yankee Troller on September 21, 2012, 11:10:40 am
Yvan - You saw what a Sat/Sun split did for the Pro Ams with no real weekend winner. I would stay clear of that.
Title: Re: King Of The Lake Spring and Fall
Post by: getitwet on September 21, 2012, 11:16:15 am
yankee Im glad you brought that up.
There is a clear winner unlike the proam.
Think of the one day sat or sun as a glorified calcutta. The defined winner is definetly the 2 day winner.
Nothing would really change in the format exept dollars and allowing people to fish a single day if they cant make a commitment for 2 and or if they dont want to compete for too much entry money.
Title: Re: King Of The Lake Spring and Fall
Post by: Witching Hour on September 21, 2012, 11:35:16 am
Well written Ivan. I'm sure these new preposals will reep benefits for the KOTL. Thumbs up from me on the entry fee. Looking forward to next yr!
A couple suggestions: - There seems to be a strong interest (amongst the fishing community at large) for immediate results and or a live web internet stream. This could increase KOTL awareness / increased sponsorship 'plugs', etc. - Also, I love the newsletter the 333 publishes throughout the yr. More sponsorship 'plugs' / team stats & finishes, tourney info / stories, upcoming rule changes, things to remember, etc, etc.
If you need a volunteer for whatever just say the word.
Cheers, J
Title: Re: King Of The Lake Spring and Fall
Post by: A-TOM-MIK on September 21, 2012, 11:36:40 am
My $.02
First priority to me as a past or potential "sponsor" and as an "event organizer" as well as a "player" (those entering the events) is giving the players as close to what they want as possible. We all know everyone will never be happy, its human nature whether you are Canadian, American or what have you. To satisfy "all" is merely impossible, but through the years if you can sustain the liking from a "majority" then you will always yield a favorable vote from your "field" of players.
I have taken a tremendous amount of time consuming info via internet forums, amongst talks at the widely diverse forefront of events available today and I've even taken the liberty of mailing out questionnaires to as many as 100 past and present players in my eastern basin area, still the end result is favoring your majority of players to keep the game moving on.
I would rank the interest I have consumed in the last 10 years into 4 categories or topics, I will list these here in no particular order, I feel they gain succession from most important to least differently to everyone, however #4 is certainly the least important, but needs a mention as it is part of our "tourney sport" that actually defines some of the first 3 over the course of time due to the fact they are the ones at times most openly stating likes and dislikes.
1) Rules: Your events rules need to favor the majority of players you are looking to cater to, if not take a look around and see which events are flourishing and which are not. Today's diversity is off the charts and the diversity is continuing to grow, I think in the end it will either water down the sport or lift certain anglers/teams reputations, dependent upon success and placements of top names
2) Fee structure: As bringing up this thread as Yvan "with a Y" has done, the fee structure is all over the map (which is good also) but it still remains a very important aspect to the event at hand to make it an attractive and viable draw. Maybe not so known to anglers outside my eastern basin area, but we have events here that cost less than $100 per team which includes food, that are drawing 75 to 110+ teams per event annually and for 6 or 7 years running.
3) Tourney info: Not to be confused with the rules of the event. This is a very important part of each and every event mentioned, high dollar or low, big or small. Information concerning the event at hand is SO IMPORTANT, everyone wants to know who placed where and who won what. In the BEGINNING of an event what will we win? After the event who won and who placed where, not just the top 3 or 10? Exactly all info pertaining to the event is simply crucial, maybe an underlying hurdle that some event coordinators over look and do not take serious enough. Info like: How many teams? Payout structure? Properly listing winners after..... etc... etc...
4) Those who aren't going to "enter" anyway: These anglers and teams will always have something to say or if you would of only done "this" I would of been there !!!! Like I stated these anglers and teams will add definition to an event, but they are always there and in every port and city the locals usually know who they are.
Just a note: I am looking forward to each KOTL in 2013, I think someone should start rating every event on the lake in an open forum, have a check list of all the above I have outlined, as more and more newer "players" come into our game this info would be a key tool to prompt an angler or team to opt which events to fish over a season. Ive been noticing it for a few years already, events are picked out way in advance by some. If I was a new team supporting an event I would certainly want my monies worth !!!
Tom
Title: Re: King Of The Lake Spring and Fall
Post by: A-TOM-MIK on September 21, 2012, 11:42:04 am
BTW Yvan no matter what you choose I will be there, well ..... as long as my captain agrees !!!!!
8)
Title: Re: King Of The Lake Spring and Fall
Post by: getitwet on September 21, 2012, 01:45:37 pm
These are very good points and that is why I put this up.
J and Tom, I agree 1000% on info relating and that is on the agenda at the top. Also part of this is what I have proposed to John Whyte here and havent finalized yet is to move all info here to this board as all of us come here on a regular basis. Start a link from here to relay info easier. I think we do some things really well and some things poorly. But I have to state that many tournaments are running today based on our trial and errors over the 14 yrs and we seem to have pioneered some great things on the lake.
If we partner up with spoonpullers the info relayed here can be with min vi phones or whatever else we can publish quickly with. I think this is the future is everybody wants it now.
Look at this spring for example. There was a tourney of 20 teams i think (not sure) at the ramp for 1 day. Now they can join us for $200 and the possibility of winning $5000 to $7000 first place for one day. (50 that we had plus 20 they had = 70 teams for one day)
The idea is to create a farm system and to bring some teams out from rec fishing to competition. All tourneys have come way up in entries and have eliminated the possibility of people to just try it to see if they like it.
I really believe this could be a winner! Hopefully we get the Trophy j's of the world that love to fish maybe throw his hat in the ring without going broke seeing if he likes it.
Title: Re: King Of The Lake Spring and Fall
Post by: troubles on September 21, 2012, 03:18:30 pm
Yvan, Good timing on getting out information early regarding your plans for 2013 King Of The Lake Series.I believe that both new and existing Tournament Teams are looking at options for the upcoming year. I personally dont see any Pro Am changes that are going to improve those tournaments to the point that they are going to grow entries and payouts.Our decision has already been made to fish as many of the 2013 KOTL Tournaments as possible considering entry restrictions.Hopefully we can get to fish one of the Tightlines. I have Partnered up with Lester and we will be there in April.
I personally think that $400 or $500 overall + $50 big fish Friday is reasonable and the $200 1 day would work also for guys who need Sunday to get home after an Event.IMO.
I believe that what will really increase entry numbers is High first place prize and 5 or 6 fish per day structure. Lets face the fact that the 12 fish per day Tournaments are losing teams and their rules may be outdated .Most teams feel that they can usually put together a 5 fish box and may be in the running.
As Tom said we will be there no matter the changes.Looking forward to 2013.
Thanks Yvan
Title: Re: King Of The Lake Spring and Fall
Post by: tyee3904 on September 21, 2012, 08:23:39 pm
Limit the amount of guys per team to 3, that way you will get more boats involved.
Title: Re: King Of The Lake Spring and Fall
Post by: JIMMAY on September 21, 2012, 08:33:57 pm
Limit the amount of guys per team to 3, that way you will get more boats involved.
this idea is coming from the same guy who had all of the GOSDs shortcomings figured out?
First off, what are you talking about?? I NEVER complained or had to figure out any "shortcomings" of the G.O.S.D as i feel it is fine the way it is. It's been run on and off for over 30 years and some newbies think they should have a right to voice changes so they can save a dime, freedom of speech so be it!
Now, back to my responce.........alot of teams are made up of more then one boat owner, limit the amount to 3 guys per team and one team of 6 well hopefully turn into 2 teams of 3.........Just a thought!
Title: Re: King Of The Lake Spring and Fall
Post by: fishdawg on September 21, 2012, 09:27:37 pm
my aplogies... too many guys with Tyee in their user names these days it seems... ??? nonetheless silly idea...
Title: Re: King Of The Lake Spring and Fall
Post by: tyee3904 on September 21, 2012, 10:08:40 pm
Ok, here is a better idea i thought of. Entry fee's based on per fisherman or people on the boat with a minimum of 2 people per boat and no maximum. So, say $200.00 per person across the board, if your fishing or not. Maximum 6 rods per boat. A 2 man team pays $400.00 in entry fee's, a 6 man team pays $1200.00 entry fee's. This should increase the amount of teams and the small teams (2 man teams) not having to break the bank to enter..... This way it is level across the board, $200 per person on the boat, 2 man minimum, no maximum accept for rods used! Obviously there is an advantage to having 6 plus guys working the rods vrs 2-3 guys which is the way it's set up now so the big boats have an advantage and the cost is the same as the smaller boats with less guys per team. It's tough to satisfy everyone though!
Title: Re: King Of The Lake Spring and Fall
Post by: Gman on September 21, 2012, 11:43:27 pm
my aplogies... too many guys with Tyee in their user names these days it seems... ??? nonetheless silly idea...
THAT is some funny shiat 'Dawg,,, ;D
Cheers G
Title: Re: King Of The Lake Spring and Fall
Post by: knotreel on September 22, 2012, 12:09:34 am
As someone looking to get into tournament fishing, entry fee is one thing, but skill level is another, would it be feasible to have an amateur and a pro level. Say the entry fee and payout for amateur level is lower than the pro level. And to move to pro you need x number of wins/points.
Title: Re: King Of The Lake Spring and Fall
Post by: barts on September 22, 2012, 09:31:19 am
After getting a new ride this year, and observing in a few tournies I was planning on fishing as many KOLT events as possible this year. One thing I like is the idea of the entry in the $400-500 dollar range. Because like Yvan said it's only a $150-$200 a team member, plus expenses of course. My team will consist of 3 guys who have been fishing since the mid 80's and have only ever fished a handful of tournies. So to have the cost of the entry fee more affordable is great for us guys getting our feet wet. Also another question I have when can I register for the events? I have a cheque sitting waiting to go in the mail. It's going to be a long winter. Matt
Title: Re: King Of The Lake Spring and Fall
Post by: Twinfish on September 22, 2012, 01:34:41 pm
Ivan,
I found your tournaments to be well run and have enjoyed fishing them when I can. You should be congraduated for everything you have done to promote sport fishing. No change to the entry fees or even an increase would suit me fine, however a perception of cost savings may help bring more tournament anglers to the tournament scene.
In reality the entry fee is the smallest part of the tournament, $600 split 4 ways is only $150 ea and $ 400 entry is only $ 100 ea. I don't think money is the issue as we are only talking about a delta of $50. I would love to fish more of the tournaments, however work tends to get in the way. To be competative you need to spend some time on the water and thats where the cost begin to add up, time off, gas etc..
Title: Re: King Of The Lake Spring and Fall
Post by: fisher on September 22, 2012, 02:37:32 pm
I and a couple of my close buds would defintely look more closely to participate in KOTL tourneys for sure if the entry fee was reduced. Although we are basically new to Lake O fishing we are having a ball due to the great fishery we have here. Having participated in a few local derbies and as an observer in the tightlines, no doubt that the friendly competition is a good time, but its not just the entry fee as others have noted thats an issue. We run a 31 Tiara and shes a pig on fuel, which is by far the single most expensive cost. However any way that the costs of joining to the KOTL can be cut help to defray the fuel costs. So even a cut of 50$ per angler if you have a team of 3 or 4....well we can now put that extra 150/200$ towards fuel.
Another issue with the derbies is the locations....if your boat is trailerable its relatively cost effective to hit all the different Port/derbies. If I have to head from my home port of whitby to STcatherines I would probably drop 600/800 on fuel, just for the back in forth....
Anyways, that said if entry fees were lowered we would certainly be wanting to partipate in those events that are cost effective for us to get to by water....so most along the North shore and hell maybe even as far as Niagara end... 8)
Keep us posted so we can see the lineup of events and locations for next year...
Regards
Mike
Title: Re: King Of The Lake Spring and Fall
Post by: TyeeTanic on September 22, 2012, 03:55:33 pm
my aplogies... too many guys with Tyee in their user names these days it seems... ??? nonetheless silly idea...
Well there will always be someone who wants to stay with the same old (the pessimists) and always someone who will suggest changes (the optimists). Always someone who will criticize. And always someone who knows better. These posts are more interesting then the Soap Operas.
Title: Re: King Of The Lake Spring and Fall
Post by: TyeeTanic on September 22, 2012, 03:58:24 pm
Limit the amount of guys per team to 3, that way you will get more boats involved.
this idea is coming from the same guy who had all of the GOSDs shortcomings figured out?
First off, what are you talking about?? I NEVER complained or had to figure out any "shortcomings" of the G.O.S.D as i feel it is fine the way it is. It's been run on and off for over 30 years and some newbies think they should have a right to voice changes so they can save a dime, freedom of speech so be it!
Now, back to my responce.........alot of teams are made up of more then one boat owner, limit the amount to 3 guys per team and one team of 6 well hopefully turn into 2 teams of 3.........Just a thought!
That's too funny. Saving a dime when the gas on one trip costs us $100.
And I don't think your idea would work. 4 guys is a good nuMber to have for a tournie.
Title: Re: King Of The Lake Spring and Fall
Post by: Silver Tracker on September 23, 2012, 06:55:30 pm
I disagree- does not make sense to charge per person?
If its a 3 man min? on a 19 ft boat 3 is getting crowded tight.
it is what it is- i like the suggestions of $200 for a day 400 for the weekend.
Makes it much more affordable- I like the format of #2- especially since I normally fish with my son.
Than if you want at the end to have a big fish off? up the anty a bit and let people decide. I prefer this to the GOSD.
I was an observer at tightlines and it was great- I would change the blast off though- a little bit hairy for smaller boats.
Title: Re: King Of The Lake Spring and Fall
Post by: TyeeTanic on September 23, 2012, 09:44:23 pm
Sorry Silver Tracker - I meant to say that a 4 man crew is good in our setup. We have a bigger boat, and you need one person at the helm always as visibility is not good from the back. Another to net, two to set lines, and reel in fish.
I understand it starts getting crowded on a 19 footer, but I had one last year, and I would say 3 can be done.
Title: Re: King Of The Lake Spring and Fall
Post by: riggermortis on September 23, 2012, 11:18:50 pm
Look at this spring for example. There was a tourney of 20 teams i think (not sure) at the ramp for 1 day. Now they can join us for $200 and the possibility of winning $5000 to $7000 first place for one day. (50 that we had plus 20 they had = 70 teams for one day)
Key thing about this is that most of these small tourneys have a registration morning of the event and at the particular one you mention as well as a lot of others MOST of the boats were under 20' with I bet half more like 16-17'. If you ask guys with these types of boats to pay up 2 wks. in advance it instantly turns a lot off due to not knowing what the winds will be like, We've discussed this before many moons ago and the facts are still the same a 25-30' boat can go when the smaller tinnies like ours can't and then it becomes a very expensive donation not an entry fee.
You wanted suggestions so here I go again if you want to get more guys out for a taste of tourney fishing make it like a real pro am with a separate pot for the little/big guys we'll call them OR give the small boaters a late registration maybe the night before like it used to be when we fished it. I'm not knocking the series at all it is what it is but the writing was on the wall when it became a much bigger entry/payout with the two week prior registration, it became a big boat tourney.
Title: Re: King Of The Lake Spring and Fall
Post by: OUTTALINEagain on September 24, 2012, 08:44:45 am
A few have mentioned the word PRO. Someone please define the word Pro in the lake o salmon world!!!
Title: Re: King Of The Lake Spring and Fall
Post by: getitwet on September 24, 2012, 08:56:38 am
Hey I can agree with you that it became a bigger boat tourney for sure. I wouldnt say a Big boat tourney. Let me explain sort of this way. Over half out field spend 1000 or more just to get to the event. Lets say 20 boats. And I say this because its happened to us in Port Credit. So on Friday the registration is 40 boats and all the local and small boats see the forcast and say we are not getting in. On Sun Morning its fishible, but we only have 16 teams in. Do you think its easy getting those guys back. Do you think its worth that risk to gain 2-3 boats and maybe lose 15-20. This is a dead horse in my opinion without sounding like an ass. We have tried that formula for 10 yrs prior to going to what we do now and frankly it might be one the best moves we have made to our series.
I believe that if the guys want to fish a tourney for $200 for one day they will have the opportunity to fish one that is 50 plus teams and that is nowhere else on the lake today. and if they want to do it twice they can do that as well. There are a lot of options to get guys to fish and we have eliminited a lot of reasons or excuses not to fish. Cant solve all the excuses but Im sure if this is a direction that we are taking we should increase the possibilities of new guys trying their hand.
Title: Re: King Of The Lake Spring and Fall
Post by: getitwet on September 24, 2012, 09:08:13 am
Outtaline again
I would like to know this as well. Lol
Big topic of conversation on the US side as well.
Although I can see where you would look at a tourney that has a 12 fish daily weigh in as intimidating but with KOTL you only have to weigh in 5 fish. I see a lot of post with things such as 11/19 and 10/15 and 17/23 ect. I can tell you this that in the fall we got lucky and took 6 bites to get 6 to the boat on sunday and 7 bites to get 6 to the boat on Sat. Many would consider us pros. We didn't feel like that those days. So Like Chuck just asked, what defines a pro? In Ontario a there are not too many full time captains and many "amateur" teams walk around with sponsors and all decked out with shirts and product given. Who is and who isn't. That is one of the main reasons when we started in 1999 we went to a 5 fish box in order to level te playing field a little. Sure some guys are seeded higher at times and in some ports but so are they in hockey or tennis and golf. The difference is they have to qualify to get to the pro level. I dont think this will ever happen in the salmon market. Sponsors are not there and we dont have enough teams that compete to qualify some in deifferent classes
Title: Re: King Of The Lake Spring and Fall
Post by: Trannyman on September 24, 2012, 10:53:52 am
Hey Yvan, just do it. Like the saying "Build it and they will come."
2009 was our first full year of fishing all the KOTL tournaments and the Tightline's Shootout. We have met a ton of great guys during this time and had a blast doing it. I definitely would recommend the experience to any angler. An experience of a lifetime.
Yvan has listened to the competitors and has changed the format over the years many times to try to accommodate us and get more anglers into the events. Mostly, a very thankless job but we still have the series to compete in. Thanks Yvan.
This season we fished the 2 KOTL tournament, the Wilson Harbor Invitational, 2 Tightline's Shootouts and the ATOMMIK Invitational in Oswego, (only Canadian team). 3 tournaments with 5 team members and 3 with 4 team members. Brother Don & I were the only members to fish all 6. Our costs were under $2,000 each but we stay on the boat and we won a few bucks. I want to know where you can holiday for 20 days with great weather for under 2 grand ?
I believe the 1-2 day format will be a huge advantage to young teams wanting to get their start in the tournament scene. I have fished a few of the small tournaments over the years and there are many great angler duos & trios out there that should try this. Add 1 more member to the team and get-r-dun.
As far as guys bitching about small boats vs big boats in rough water conditions, we don't go if there is a Small Craft Warning announced. In 2010 we only fished 5 of the 10 KOTL tournament days.
I like both tournament formats. 5 fish - 8 rods and the 6 fish - 6 rod shootout type event. I have talked to observers that have been on a winning boat and they won the tournament only using 4 rods instead of 8. Less maybe more.
One recommendation that I would make is speed up the weigh-in process. Tom got it right in Oswego. Awesome weigh-in. As soon as a team got to the tent, they started to weigh the boxes. At some of these events the weigh-in takes forever and it is a pain standing in the hot sun. Just something to think about for the organizers.
Secondly the tournament info is a must. Before and after the event.
Great thread. Al
Title: Re: King Of The Lake Spring and Fall
Post by: DDay on September 24, 2012, 02:30:25 pm
I think the 1st step to growing the series is doing what we are doing right here...talking about it, kodos for opening up the conversation.
Many good points posted. One I would like to highlight again is what Tom called Tourney Info. This is a must and as Tom said not just leading up to the tournament. Afterwards guys want to know who placed where and what the payouts were. Guys like to look back at the standings and see what that one lost fish or extra 10lbs would have done for them. If there is a series its imperative to have the updated standings ASAP. And by adding more entry levels as you are suggesting this will become even more important.
There has been some talk about small boats vs large boats, and how some may feel it's not a level playing field. Not sure a Pro/Am is the way you would want to go. Our friends in the states did away with this format this past year. Might be be something to learn from that? One idea I have been giving some thought to the last few days is why not create two overall Calcutta's. One at a higher entry level say around $300 and the other $100 or less. However the catch would be you can't enter both. The idea behind this would be most of the series contenders, like Vision Quest, Thrillseeker, Royal Flush, and Bill Collector would opt into the Higher Calcutta leaving the smaller calcutta for some of the smaller or lets say less groomed anglers. You could also class them into boat size, although I don't think boat size always tells the entire story. Some might argue you may get sandbaggers in the smaller calcutta, but to be honest I don't really see it. I think most of the big guns want to compete for the biggest pot. Besides I don't think I would want to be the guy that finished in the top 3 overall the year previous going in the smaller calcutta. Thoughts?
Great Thread...thanks for getting it started Yvan. Darryl
Title: Re: King Of The Lake Spring and Fall
Post by: getitwet on September 24, 2012, 03:50:25 pm
Hey Darryl
I couldnt agree more with the info thing. We have lacked worse than anyone and Tom did a bang up job at his. All other tourneys stuggled with it along the way. In our defence we tried so hard for past 2 yrs in cleaning up and and shoring up the way we enter and weigh in we didnt do as good of a job on our weigh in show and info leading and following the event.
Every event we try to look back and say we would love this, lets do that and try this and try that. At the end of the day, we have tried things that work and we have done things that suck. I will be the first to admit. I also believe that we really didn't have any other event to compare things to and also pick and chose things that we liked.
I think this thread shold be looked at by evey organizer as to determine where they go from where they are today. Very informative thread to say the least.
On the calcutta deal. I have been pondering a long box calcutta. We have been pressured over the yrs to make 6-8-10-even 12 fish boxes. I think adding 5 fish to your box after weghing your 5 would kill paul our weigh in guy but would add another dimension to the "groomed guy". A little along the way of the proam but simpler and as an option for who wants to buy in.
So... $100 calcutta for regular 5 fish and another for $200-300 for long box. Weekend long total as there would be good payouts each day for regular 5 fish box.
I think we could keep it simple and have tremendous payouts and hopefully draw a farm system that can provide not just our events but all events new teams.
Title: Re: King Of The Lake Spring and Fall
Post by: visionquest on September 24, 2012, 06:39:28 pm
Yvan with a Y". LOL
Good thread and I am impressed that you are into it early and ahead of the game. WOW :) Nice...
Thanks for the efforts to put these on, absorb the potential risks and be the one to take the bullets as they come. These events take time and a big effort by you, your family, Paul and the crew. Thanks and thanks to all tourney event organizers. They allow us the opportunity to play.
Some good ideas being written here.
With that said:
I favor the $400 entry. Everyone likes to save a buck or two and this has been the concensus so far. Go with majority, esp. if it gets some new teams in.
I like Darryl's idea of a twofold calcutta. $100/$300. This helps the "jackpot" for the guys who wanna play for some more money-since the payouts may be lower due to lower entries? It allows for the same at a lesser level for the guys who may not be as confident but still wanna play for some extra money. I agree that we can only enter one calcutta.
I favor the current format of 5 fish, two days overall and one entry fee. However, (6) fish would be cool to see from (5) and consistent with the WHI, Titelines and Tom's event. Unless there is a lot of players who wanna keep it at 5. ? No added long boxes. Weigh 5 or 6 and call it a day... Better for the fishery, faster weigh ins and its been successful as is. It would also prevent a major blow out of fishing it tough and someone runs 40 miles and hits a grand slam...
I don't like the idea of breaking the event into two events. The Pro-Ams did it and it equated to a lot more checks, longer weigh-in, longer wait at awards ceremony... for a lot of checks. It definitely took away from that overall winner feeling and it became a shared win. Did I shared win ? Granted, I was part of the tourney committee, I can honestly say that it felt very "broken up" and less prestigious with a split format. (I wish others would chime in on this one, either way) (If you fished the NY Pro-Ams in 2012 and maybe received a check etc.. Thoughts ???) I say pay one entry and if your in, your in for BOTH days... If your not ready for these or cannot commit to both days, then maybe there are other events and other one dayers that will suffice.
Vinces P.'s idea (verbal) about doing random boat checks in lieu of all boats was a great thought and would make it easier on the tourney committee. Or boats could draw another team and perform their own self policing boat checks each morning?
I liked the day 2 top 10 observer deal you added last year BUT it needs to be more real and effort put into obtaining them for all boats.
The spot gutting/checking of the fish after weigh ins was added last year or this spring (can't recall) but it was not carried out for all the events? It was a good added feature to the evets but it was not carried through ? Maybe that could be brought back?
8 rods is cool.
Hard, really hard to decipher Pro fom AM... Harder to enforce... Your format already tries to level out the playing field and to break up pro-am would make it way more difficult on yourself, be hard to enforce and you will be writing up another rule which decides who is and who is not ? Long sentence..
I think a late fee (moderate amt) should be added to teams that get in late. Its unfair to guys who pay early. It should be a late fee thats not excessive but enough to "remind" them to pay on time at next event. That late fee goes directly to the payout or..... Can go to the team with the lowest score at that event as a consolation prize ?
Some good ideas brewing here. Thanks for opp. to post thoughts.
More to follow.
Capt. Pete Vision Quest
Title: Re: King Of The Lake Spring and Fall
Post by: tyee3904 on September 24, 2012, 07:03:22 pm
I think the 8 rod rule should be dropped to 6 rods, 8 rods is too busy for most boats under 24' i.m.o. Also 3 man or under teams are automatically at a disadvantage right off the bat with the 8 rod rule.
Title: Re: King Of The Lake Spring and Fall
Post by: FishAbout on September 24, 2012, 07:55:09 pm
I like to fish the KOTL but the price has jumped up as has the other tourny's have. Small boats can do well though. How many times has Pressman placed top 10. I used to fish them with my dad in a 17'6ft boat as a two man team. We placed 6th a couple years ago. I don't buy bigger boats will do better because they can run more rods. I fished on a team this year in a 20 ft grady white and we did well running a 4 and 6 rod spread. We placed 10th in the fall KOTL and 14th and the tightlines. We caught more fish in the fall KOTL then most did but not as lucky for size. One advantage to big boats is they can run far in a rough chop but they can say they are at disadvantage when the water is calm and small boats can go faster. It is hard to have a 4 man team though with small boat. Having a $400 entry fee would great to see. Cost me a lot of money to fish them and If they keep going up I will not beable to fish as many. Have to take three days off work and then the entry, food and motel.
Title: Re: King Of The Lake Spring and Fall
Post by: tyee3904 on September 24, 2012, 08:07:19 pm
Let's do the math, 8 rods X 8 hours fishing =64 hours X 5 Tournaments =320 hours. 6 rodsX 8 hours fishing=48 hoursX5 Tournaments=240 hours. Hmmmm, those extra 2 rods account for 80 hours fishing time over a season........ So i see a clear advantage having a 4 man or better team vrs a 3 man or less...... How many more fish do you figure you can possibly catch having 2 rods down for an extra 80 hours or 16 hours per tournament? 6 rods would clearly level the field.........
Title: Re: King Of The Lake Spring and Fall
Post by: TyeeTanic on September 24, 2012, 08:20:42 pm
Let's do the math, 8 rods X 8 hours fishing =64 hours X 5 Tournaments =320 hours. 6 rodsX 8 hours fishing=48 hoursX5 Tournaments=240 hours. Hmmmm, those extra 2 rods account for 80 hours fishing time over a season........ So i see a clear advantage having a 4 man or better team vrs a 3 man or less...... How many more fish do you figure you can possibly catch having 2 rods down for an extra 80 hours or 16 hours per tournament? 6 rods would clearly level the field.........
Why are you perfectly okay to suggest changes to tournaments here, but are adament not to consider improvements to other tournaments (GOSD)? Confusing ...
Title: Re: King Of The Lake Spring and Fall
Post by: tyee3904 on September 24, 2012, 08:26:50 pm
Why are you perfectly okay to suggest changes to tournaments here, but are adament not to consider improvements to other tournaments (GOSD)? Confusing ... [/quote]
Why are you hounding my posts on this board?? What is your agenda?
Title: Re: King Of The Lake Spring and Fall
Post by: TyeeTanic on September 24, 2012, 08:31:25 pm
No agenda - just confused why you want to shut down conversation on pretty much the same kind of topic for the GOSD, and then are perfectly okay to request changes for the KOTL series. I was hoping you would see a lot of our point of view on GOSD through your approach to the KOTL here, instead of being selective. Anyhow, I'm done - won't bother you about it anymore.
Title: Re: King Of The Lake Spring and Fall
Post by: getitwet on September 24, 2012, 10:49:45 pm
Ithanks for the imput gus and some really good things by Pete. We have discussed things and Im glad he has put up on here.
I have to put one thing to rest though. It is staying an 8 rod limt for sure. I dont think I will ever consider that rule change. Reasons are this: Its as much of a disadvantage for a big boat that runs 10-12 rods per day to take out 4 rods out of his daily spread as it is for a small boat doesnt feel comfortable running 8 to fish 6. I know many small boats running states side running 9 with three guys now. 4-6 or 8 rods, pesonal preference is what it comes down to. some days 2 might be enough! I dont want a lottery i want a fishing tournament in fact I dont want a fishing derby where a lucky fish dictates the winner as it does in the GOSD I think the winners are very good fisherman but there is a lot of luck involved in boating that good fish not just catching it.
I am not one to like the long box short box format just thought of an extra feature as a side pot and threw it out.
I know there are a lot of excuses not to fish tournaments but I m trying to get rid of some of those in order to grow. Every tournament was down this yr in entries, its time to turn this thing around.
We are also bringing back some raffles, food and non alcoholic drinks. Beer tent is too costly and teams can bring their own without losing license.
Keep it coming and please dont make this personal in any way it is going well and really want to keep it this way. We want to have this settled by Oct 15th with dates and format. Hope we get there.
Title: Re: King Of The Lake Spring and Fall
Post by: tyee3904 on September 24, 2012, 11:15:40 pm
Sorry to hear that about 8 rods, Tightline Shootout is 6 rods and no big boats are complaining about that. Count me out then, no way in hell am i overcrowding my 22' boat so i can run 8 rods. Plus if i was ever in the top 10 after day one i would need 5 onboard, 1 extra for the observer......... It's hard enough to find 2 other guys to fish with......... It's not a matter of being capable of running 8 rods, it's a matter of smaller boats having to crowd the boat in order to run the eight rods....... Good luck, hope it works out for you........
Title: Re: King Of The Lake Spring and Fall
Post by: fishdawg on September 24, 2012, 11:43:00 pm
Great thread so far.
Love the idea of $100-$200 / $300-$400 2 day 5/6 fish box Calcuttas
As its been mentioned, I amongst many others though havent been able to participate in the past because home/work & unpredictable weather has not made it practical to throwing the cash in to make the early registration deadline. But from a business standpoint, I fully support the reasons for having it in place.
For this past Spring KOTL I did however committ to playing along in the Big Fish Friday, only to have it blow beyond comfort for our teams boat.
Also being on a "small boat" I have no problem/concerns only having 4/6 rods vs. 8. Sometimes less IS more ;)
I like others appreciate your efforts in this whole deal Yvan. A simple update of results and standings via a Twitter Feed and a FB page might have gone a long way too...
Title: King Of The Lake Spring and Fall
Post by: rockandtroll on September 25, 2012, 12:15:42 am
Just a few thoughts......
We prefer the 6 rod format over 8 rods. We often just pull 6 even when the rules say we can pull 8 and we run a 31 ft boat.. I think that 6 rods would keep the small boat vs large boat on a more level playing field.
The advantage we seen in having a larger team was in the amount of fish that can be kept to stay within the possession limit rules. In the spring kotl and in Wilson with a 3 man team we hit our boat limit and could not keep upgrading. More team members would have let us keep fishing. 30+ fish days but cookie cutter size fish make it tough to upgrade more than a few ounces at a time.
We like the 2 day format. There is always a chance for redemption if day one didn't work out so well. We travel down from Georgian Bay for these tournaments and not being on lake O on a constant basis sometimes make it hard to get on the fish in a one day tournament.
The no communication rule helped level the field so we no longer find our single out of town boat fishing against a fleet of locals and us not having anyone to call for info. Have met and made new friends at every tournament. Have learned a lot about tackle and techniques from them. Tournament fishing will make you into a better fisherman.
The entry fee for the tournament is not the big issue. Our expenses for fuel and travel far outweigh the actual entry fee. A couple hundred dollars is not going to make or break a tournament for us. The only tournament we decided not to fish because of the expense this year was Tom's tournament in Oswego. We worked out the trucking and boat fuel costs vs the chance of taking home a cheque and reluctantly decided not to enter.
Missed the final KOTL event this year due to engine problems but we are looking forward to next year and the new engines.
It's going to be a very long winter! Wish everyone well and looking forward to seeing you guys next spring.
Mike
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
Title: Re: King Of The Lake Spring and Fall
Post by: DDay on September 25, 2012, 08:49:34 am
Not sure if you are considering new dates Yvan. However I have heard people say they find labour day weekend to be a tough sell. The weekend before might be better suited for some.
Title: Re: King Of The Lake Spring and Fall
Post by: Yankee Troller on September 25, 2012, 09:44:44 am
Not sure if you are considering new dates Yvan. However I have heard people say they find labour day weekend to be a tough sell. The weekend before might be better suited for some.
Couldn't agree more!
Title: Re: King Of The Lake Spring and Fall
Post by: tonyb on September 25, 2012, 10:18:36 am
Question: I recall hearing that there was a rule change for how the fish must be stored during the KOTL tourney now. Is it true that you can no longer use a livewell? Must be a cooler with ice that is equipped with a drain? Only reason I bring it up is for consideration of smaller boats where deck space is at a premium ;)
I haven't fished the series in years, but I am enjoying following the developments here. This is a good positive discussion, and I hope that your turnout improves next year as a result Yvan. 8)
Title: Re: King Of The Lake Spring and Fall
Post by: getitwet on September 25, 2012, 10:31:33 am
Hey Tyee
Im sorry to hear that you wont join us because of 8 rods vs 6 rods. But I have to clarify one major thing. You said the tightlines is 6 rods and nobody is complaining about that. I haveto tell you that probably over half the field is complaining about that including sponsors and tackle shops. Less rods means less participants, less tackle buying ect.. But lets make no mistake unless I dont talk to enough people or the same people it is a topic that comes up at every event that limits rods to 6 in a negative way.
Let me say this though, This is what makes different formats work around the lake. Some 6 fish, some 5 and some 12. Some 2 days, some 1 day. The cool thiong is for the first time in many years that I have been doing this (14) the organizers are all getting along and are all trying to put better products available for us to fish. I love fishing other events whatever the rules are. If you enter any tournament with the sole reason for fishing is winning you will be very dissapointed and not last long in the tournament scene. If you go to enjoy all or at least most of the situation or weekend being with friends, meeting new ones, competing, getting your blood flowing before shotgun start, counting down the hours or min left because you need that last fish even if doesn't mena shit in the standings but you dont want to come in without a full box. If you dont get that, your in the wrong sport becuse even the ones that are fortunate to win over time are lucky to break even.
Darryl, I have thought about it a lot actually, The 24th weekend could also work, what do you guys think. I know a lot of boys like the labor day festivities in dalhousie. I was also thinking of sat,sun fish with blow day on Mon if neccessary. This would help get 2 days in some weekends.
I feel like a preacher sometimes on here, but I love the competition and love to compete. I think most that fish these events do. I am not looking at making this the biggest payout or the largest entry. I am looking at getting as many people invested in loving the competition part of this sport and having good payouts for as little as possible.
Keep this thread going, good ideas will come of it for many
Title: Re: King Of The Lake Spring and Fall
Post by: getitwet on September 25, 2012, 10:34:21 am
Hey Tony
Yes it is true that you cn't keep your fish in a livewell full of water or alive. But you can keep them in the livewell with the proper icedown techniques. This has made everyone level on how to handle fish.
Title: Re: King Of The Lake Spring and Fall
Post by: TyeeTanic on September 25, 2012, 12:09:38 pm
Yes it is true that you cn't keep your fish in a livewell full of water or alive. But you can keep them in the livewell with the proper icedown techniques. This has made everyone level on how to handle fish.
For a newbie, what is the main reason for this?
Title: Re: King Of The Lake Spring and Fall
Post by: tonyb on September 25, 2012, 12:58:35 pm
Yes it is true that you cn't keep your fish in a livewell full of water or alive. But you can keep them in the livewell with the proper icedown techniques. This has made everyone level on how to handle fish.
For a newbie, what is the main reason for this?
To level the playing field. When fish are kept in a livewell they are submerged in water (and could potentially weigh heavier than if they weren't submerged), in a cooler with ice & drain they are not submerged or as wet.
We used to keep the fish we caught in the livewell and have a rubbermaid tote we would keep filled with water at the dock so it wouldn't blow away during the day when we were fishing. Once we returned to port we would then dump the water out of the rubbermaid tote and transfer the fish to the tote to carry over to the weigh in...pure Ghetto style ;D...those big ass coolers are expensive hehehe
Title: King Of The Lake Spring and Fall
Post by: Digby on September 25, 2012, 01:06:33 pm
I am a firm believer that less is more. I can run a comfortable 10 rod spread on my rig, but have had awesome days running 6 rods or less. Some of the best days have been running two wire and two riggers! Sometimes I will also run copper or leadcore on my outriggers. Tough to do in combat fishing though!
Title: Re: King Of The Lake Spring and Fall
Post by: Witching Hour on September 25, 2012, 03:33:52 pm
Yvan (with a "Y" ... LOL), I have heard the misnomer that small boats can't compete against big boats in the KOTL. I think many good anglers have closed the door on that theory over the years (although boat / troll may be better in a larger boat ... a whole other topic though). I think a big part of that is the intimidation factor ... small boat competing against "animals" like GetItWet / Thrillseeker / Vision Quest / Moby Nick / Royal Flush / Pressman, etc, etc. A fellow may say ... how can I compete against these "animals" OR "Super Heros?!" [No joke ... they are Super Heros of the Lake Ontario Salmon World BTW ... they eat brined anchovies for breakfast! If I had kids and these guys had "players cards" I'd buy for my kids! LOL.] All of the organizers of the event / anglers are very friendly and welcoming. I think this board discussion / new preposed changes / new hightened awareness / will get those guys sitting "on the fence" to sign up next yr... ;)
Cheers, J
Title: Re: King Of The Lake Spring and Fall
Post by: riggermortis on September 25, 2012, 04:23:57 pm
Just to be clear on my point we're not intimidated at all fishing against bigger boats we've been lucky enough to place well ahead of many in smaller tourneys the last couple yrs. Point I was trying to make was it's hard for a lot of guys in smaller boats to send in large entry fees well in advance not knowing what the lake will be like. Only guys that ever seem to slap that fact aside are in big boats.
Title: Re: King Of The Lake Spring and Fall
Post by: tonyb on September 25, 2012, 04:25:09 pm
Yvan (with a "Y" I might add ... LOL), I have heard the misnomer that small boats can't compete against big boats in the KOTL. I think many good anglers have closed the door on that theory over the years. I think a big part of that is the intimidation factor ... small boat competing against "animals" like GetItWet / Thrillseeker / Vision Quest / Moby Nick / Royal Flush / Pressman, etc, etc. A fellow may say ... how can I compete against these "animals" OR "Super Heros?!" [No joke ... they are Super Heros of the Lake Ontario Salmon World BTW ... they eat brined anchovies for breakfast!] All of the organizers of the event / anglers are very friendly and welcoming. I think this board discussion / new preposed changes / new hightened awareness / will get those guys sitting "on the fence" to sign up next yr... ;)
Cheers, J
LOL Salmon Super Heroes!
Small boats fish less effectively in borderline small craft warning weather period. It's not a question of angler skill, but wind/waves works against the smaller, lighter boats by degrading effective boat control.
Boat size aside, I believe what seperates the consistent winners is time on the water, experience, and confidence in your own strategy.
I would say that the 'intimidation factor' (if you want to call it that) for me personally is that I can't dedicate the time to sufficiently pre-fish each event. In my view, without somewhat extensive pre-fishing it is difficult to know where the active fish are, how they are moving based on prevailing weather, and build a program custom tailored to your boat/style.
Hmm...a thought just occurred to me, maybe that is how you could define a 'pro'? If your pre-fishing day count exceeds your regular day job count on the week leading up to a major tournament ;) Certainly if your regular day job IS pre-fishing ;D
Just to be clear on my point we're not intimidated at all fishing against bigger boats we've been lucky enough to place well ahead of many in smaller tourneys the last couple yrs. Point I was trying to make was it's hard for a lot of guys in smaller boats to send in large entry fees well in advance not knowing what the lake will be like. Only guys that ever seem to slap that fact aside are in big boats.
Agreed, realistically for the KOTL since you must register ahead of time, you should be in a vessel that allows you to be comfortable fishing in anything up to a Small Craft Warning (Not just an advisory)
I believe that is when they would cancel an event, if there was a Small Craft Warning. Tony
Title: Re: King Of The Lake Spring and Fall
Post by: moemoe on September 26, 2012, 08:57:51 am
I am one of the guys that is new to the tournament series, fishing a few of the events. I think this is fantastic that Yvan is having communication regarding this topic. From my experience, the tournament itself is well run. Weighin is still relatively quick and smooth in my opinion. One suggestion for me would be to have the captains meeting directly after the big fish friday weigh in, intead of waiting around till 6pm. I feel the lead up to the tournament can be improved on. The King of the lake website hasn't really been updated in 2 years, and things even like registration deadlines and times of captains meetings are not listed. I understand usually they are the same from tournie to tournie, but for new groups interested like myself, it would be nice if there was more info availaible. Not to slam Yvan, but in a tourney where you an electronic weigh in system and calculation, I don't understnd why the final results arent updated anywhere, it was odd that the only real info out there post tournie was the calcutta results, with detailed payouts, that dday posted here after day 1 and day 2.
Fishing these things in a smaller boat, the only intimidation I get is from the weather. It sucks to have to payout the cash and not be able to get where you want to go, but that is a learning process as well. I love the idea of having the lower entry fee, ie $400, plus the option of the 2 calcuttas. Afte not paying the 100$ for the tightltine calcutta, and regretting it, I was convinced not to miss out on it again, but a calcutta of 200 each day for the fall scotty was a little too rich for me. For all the guys concerned about the small boat factor, pressman is out there competing in a 19 foot boat, so it can be done successfully.
I love the competetion of these events, and it's humbling sometimes as well, as I still have a lot to learn to be consistent. It's great to have something like this organized, kudos to yvan for that
Title: Re: King Of The Lake Spring and Fall
Post by: visionquest on September 26, 2012, 11:03:22 am
Lots of good thoughts.
Not to be the referee here, but were just talking fishing here.. Keep it cool, were all just trying to give our own input for a good reason and because Yvan wants to here it (good, bad or indifferent)
8 rods vs. 6 topic: In an 8 rod event, we do NOT always run 8. Sometimes, the extra rods get in the way, get tangled and cost one a fish, fishing time (tangles) and bites... The 6 vs. 8 is a pretty tough argument to win/lose and it really boils down to.. Does one realy want to fish the event to begin with? If so, then they will roll with the rules...Then choose the most effective program for their boat/crew/conditions. There are days on a tough bite where 15 rods would not make much of a diff. and days when you can't keep 6 wet... Having different events with some different rules keeps it interesting. My 2 cents.
Titelines is 6. OK. Thats the rule. No complaints. Would 8 be better? Yep, but thats the rule I signed up for and I better make em all count. LOL
Small boat vs. big: Another tough argument or what not... Big boats in skinny water=bad, Big boats that have to run a great distance=bad. Big boats fuel bill after a weekend event in which they had to run far=doubly bad. Big boats in 4-8 ft. seas=good. Small boats have their advantages and as mentioned, there are many good teams putting a beat down on the fish in small boats. We know who they are... It can and does get done.
As said in another thread, Capt. V.P. of Thrillseeker and I always commented on the attitudes of the Canadian guys we see who have smaller rigs. Its the "just bring it" attitude and the attitude that were gonna beat you even if you have your big battleships over here. LOL.. We can appreciate that Spirit and love to compete in that environment where it exists.
Were a part time crew that travels to Lake O. to battle with the locals on your Lake, your ports and against your communication network. Toss the Erie rods and walleye gear off the boat and load up the salmon gear with the dust on it.. We usually have to dial in a program within a couple days. (NOT EASY) and no one sends us the Memo stating where the fish are and what their eating. LOL . In fact, Yvan usually tells us the fish are opposite of where their usually at, so we figd his scheme out and go opposite of where he tells us to go. Or if he says the bite is a grind, we know It's GOOD ;D We come against greater odds but come cuz we just like to compete, love to see everyone and the atmosphere and anticipation is hard to duplicate.
Keep the thoughts coming. There good for everyone to see and maybe when its all said and done, Yvan and others can help their events be what the fisherman really want?
Where can we send our entry fee to?
Captain Pete Vision Quest
Title: Re: King Of The Lake Spring and Fall
Post by: Yankee Troller on September 26, 2012, 03:43:20 pm
I would say that the 'intimidation factor' (if you want to call it that) for me personally is that I can't dedicate the time to sufficiently pre-fish each event. In my view, without somewhat extensive pre-fishing it is difficult to know where the active fish are, how they are moving based on prevailing weather, and build a program custom tailored to your boat/style.
Most boats only pre-fish one day with a few getting in two. We are one boat who only gets in one day of pre-fish for Canadian events. We do OK, but we've never cashed in a KOTL event. However, we have done well in Toronto with one day of practice over the last two years going 3 for 3 on checks. With that being said our only tourney win was Orleans 2007, and we won with NO practice and a 25' boat. Remember that things change daily. What you did two days ago rarely will result in similar results.
Title: Re: King Of The Lake Spring and Fall
Post by: John Whyte on September 26, 2012, 04:55:09 pm
It seems entry fees are a topic for all species tournaments these days. I believe the state of the economy and cost of fuel is the major stressor. After all is said and done if you live far enough away that travel and accommodations come in to play, the entry fee becomes the smallest component of the total cost. Lower entry might help most but the payout structure has to be able to support a healthy percentage of anglers with the chance of breaking even. In smaller tournaments with low entry fees you might have to win to break even.
I guess there is a balance between wanting to afford and can't afford that will entice more anglers to commit to tournaments again. Everything seems to be last minute these days and it is tough to organize and get sponsorship for that type of commitment.
Title: Re: King Of The Lake Spring and Fall
Post by: barts on September 26, 2012, 06:30:45 pm
I really like the 6 rod idea but 8 won't stop us. A good point made with the observer. It would crowd the smaller boats. I also like the idea DDay had about the 2 seperate calcuttas. If you want to pay a bit more and play with the big boys that is a personal option. I like lots of the ideas here. I however don't like the option of having the choice of fishing 1 or 2 days. If you are going to fish a tourney then you should fish both days. Just my 2 cents. when can I send a cheque for spring?
Title: Re: King Of The Lake Spring and Fall
Post by: tyee3904 on September 26, 2012, 10:02:05 pm
Yes, i would be more interested if it was 6 rods that's forsure. It does not make much sence to get into something and pay the same fee when you start at a disadvantage (3 man team or less). Sure it is supposed to be fun, but everyone is in it to win i.m.o. As i have broke down on day one in the past after 15 mins of fishing it would be nice if there was a draw prize of some kind for the rest of the field to be in that does not finish in the money. That way every team that enters has a chance to win something even if you break down.......... One thing that would be nice is to have something given back to the fisherman from the "sponcers", i currently have never seen this but have heard of sponcers supporting the tournament, but how? Not trying to cause a problem but when entering something that is sponcered it would be nice for the participants to also know the payouts before hand as well. As it seems to be it's 100 percent payout from the fisherman's money and nothing from the "sponcers"...........
Title: Re: King Of The Lake Spring and Fall
Post by: darkfisher on September 27, 2012, 12:13:51 am
Not really at a disadvantage. we fish an 18 foot lund. normally finishing in the top 20. the fishing in the spring and the fall can happen in shallow water and 8 rods will often put you at a disadvantage. untangling lines and crisscrossing fish when the bite gets hot. we tried to fish 8 in the spring derby but the fishing was so good we never got over 6 and we still boated over 65 kings in 2 days. 8 can easily be done in a small boat. I believe that if you can't catch 5 fish in 8 hours on six rods 8 wouldn't be much more help. This is a great tourney and I think everyone should give it a shot you never know when it's going to be your day. I think the lower entry fees would help but that being said 650 for the weekend plus some gas usually works out to 200 bucks a person. can't beat that for a weekend of fun and the prizes stay nice and high. I'll be there next year no matter what.
Title: Re: King Of The Lake Spring and Fall
Post by: chadk on September 27, 2012, 06:58:25 pm
If you are looking for new blood, consider two tiers based on size of boat. Can't picture four people in an 18' lund in 3-5' waves trying to run eight rods. Tier #1 for boats 25' or larger. Higher entry fee, bigger payout. Eight rods. Tier #2 for boats smaller than 25'. Lower entry fee, smaller payout and six rods. If someone wants to run their 18' boat with the big boys....let them. Nice to have a choice.
Title: Re: King Of The Lake Spring and Fall
Post by: steve on September 27, 2012, 06:59:19 pm
I can't add much to this, as I've never done a tournament of this size or nature - however, RM's points, each and every one, I echo 100%.
He understands the small boaters plight.
I'd enter if the rules allowed 8 rods - sure. absolutely.
6 rods is enough to catch a good bag.
you must allow "morning of" enteries, or at the least, day before enteries.
great thread all!
Title: Re: King Of The Lake Spring and Fall
Post by: knotreel on September 27, 2012, 09:35:13 pm
If you are looking for new blood, consider two tiers based on size of boat. Can't picture four people in an 18' lund in 3-5' waves trying to run eight rods. Tier #1 for boats 25' or larger. Higher entry fee, bigger payout. Eight rods. Tier #2 for boats smaller than 25'. Lower entry fee, smaller payout and six rods. If someone wants to run their 18' boat with the big boys....let them. Nice to have a choice.
I run both a 26' boat and a 20' boat, my set up and spread is the same on both, I think the number of people is more the issue, 4 can be tight on a smaller boat. Does 2 toss really make much of a difference? The only time I run 8 rods is when the bite is really slow.
Title: Re: King Of The Lake Spring and Fall
Post by: EJW88 on September 28, 2012, 05:32:14 pm
I personally think the 8 rod rule is not a problem. We have never fished with more then 3 people on our team and running six rods compared to eight never made us feel at a disadvantage. We fish out a smaller boat and on rough days it does suck, but we still feel we are competitive. On flat days though we can be ahead of the whole pack running to our spot. As others have said keep it a two day tournament. I think that keeps it more competitive, having to put together two good days of fishing is more fun in my opinion.
I do agree with others that updates need to be worked on and I am glad it is being addressed. The lower entry fee is nice feature to add for next year and it should be bring more teams in. As far as the Calcutta feature with two different pots, if it helps bring in more teams as well go for it.
Title: Re: King Of The Lake Spring and Fall
Post by: getitwet on October 05, 2012, 09:28:28 am
Now that most of the conversation has slowed down on individual tourneys here are a few other options
Overall? 2 st catharines tournies mandatory and 1 tightlines -
2 st catharines tournies mandatory and the same as last year-
2 st catharines tournies mandatory and both tight lines -
2 st catharnes tournies, another 2 day in the US (olcott, sodus, rochester ???) and 2 of the one day tourney
Or if you have any suggestions let me know.
If you are a team that hasnt fish and wish to please tell us what is holding you back from the overall. There are many teams that can compete in this and it would be great to see more teams.
Title: Re: King Of The Lake Spring and Fall
Post by: A-TOM-MIK on October 05, 2012, 10:49:27 am
I vote for a new tourney in Sodus, great place !!!
Title: Re: King Of The Lake Spring and Fall
Post by: Yankee Troller on October 05, 2012, 12:10:02 pm
I like the Spring/Fall St. Cathy and the three one day shootouts.
Title: Re: King Of The Lake Spring and Fall
Post by: getitwet on October 05, 2012, 02:22:48 pm
If sodus, What time of yr? Would July or Aug be better
Title: Re: King Of The Lake Spring and Fall
Post by: Yankee Troller on October 05, 2012, 02:46:10 pm
I think it's a waste to go to Sodus. You know how hard it is to get Canadians to cross the border. Let alone 90+ miles across it. It's just as hard to get Americans to cross the border. Keep the 5 series format you have. It offers three different formats in three ports.
Not to mention no one wants to go all the way down there to twiddle their thumbs! Fishing there for the Pro Ams for a few years 1 out of every 3 is a Salmon bite. For someone, especially a Canadian team, to invest that much to travel that far the fishing better be damn good!
Title: Re: King Of The Lake Spring and Fall
Post by: barts on October 05, 2012, 04:36:08 pm
Well I think that for any of the canadian guys we would all rather all canadian dates and the american guys would probably love all american events. Your never going to make everyone happy. I am really looking forward to the spring event in st. catherines. After that we are on the trailer so where ever they are we will be there. A Bronte or perhaps Credit event might be a good option mid way through summer.
Title: Re: King Of The Lake Spring and Fall
Post by: darkfisher on October 05, 2012, 05:09:12 pm
I second the Bronte/Credit idea. This doesn't apply to everyone I know but I have kids in sports and a Nurse wife that works weird shifts. The only thing that holds us back from the overall would be staying out of town. I like Tourneys I can drive home from at the end of the day. Wilson to theCredit is good with me.
Title: Re: King Of The Lake Spring and Fall
Post by: knotreel on October 05, 2012, 06:06:51 pm
I think the chances of having it out of credit would be a lot higher than Bronte, a venue in that area would definatly be nice!
Title: Re: King Of The Lake Spring and Fall
Post by: getitwet on October 05, 2012, 06:11:06 pm
I would love Credit or Bronte.
Again What time of yr?
We had credit in the fall for 5 yrs and it was a poor draw. one yr we had 16 boats!
There is a tourney in that area in June and July. I think the only time would be mid aug or so.
What R your thoughts?
Yankee, I agree that the format works but. 2 teams used the wilson scores out of the crew because fish are smaller that time of yr. Really doesnt help exept if mandatory. 2 guys Get It Wet and Vision Quest because they didnt fish tightlines. What I am saying i guess his the Wilson tournament had no affect on the scores and we would have loved it to be
One Option is both St catharines, Wilson (mandatory) and one tightlines
Just thoughts out loud at this point
Title: Re: King Of The Lake Spring and Fall
Post by: A-TOM-MIK on October 05, 2012, 07:08:58 pm
Yvan, Again great idea getting input this far in advance:
As much as you are looking for info pertaining to your KOTL individual events as this thread started out and also now looking for info pertaining to your "Over-all" keep in mind your "targeted" field of each. Namely your past entries
If you want input you almost have to cater to each on their own, targeting each's crowd, meaning you can accept all the input in the world from many, as al input is good, but is it fair to change a structure from input form those who don't regularly play. Exactly what happened to the Oswego Pro/Am, they changed the rules right out from underneath us and then were surprised when they had no entrants a few short years down the road.
Take your past over-all series for example, you have had approx. 15 to 18 over-all teams in past years, it seems you would look to them first for input as they have already created the startings of what you are trying to capitalize on. Just taking last years over-all teams, you have almost half of them who have all came as far as Oswego to compete in the past. With that said you could host your "series" almost anywhere and get those core teams no matter what
Sodus being 20 miles closer than Oswego could turnout to be a great venue, or even treat it as that optional event? I would say mid August
Just thoughts
Rick: Don't be surprised at the early Tightlines in 2013, it may not be the crush fest you may anticipate, each venue has ups and downs, not really fair to opt out a certain area due to a few bad showings, heck I always detested Orleans!!!! Other than Niagara events I have fished every event on the lake and recall each a struggle in different years.
With the Sodus Pro/Am maintaining an honorable showing even through tough times and poorly structured rules says a little something about the area
Even though my all time favorite place is O-Town you can't dislike the Sodus setting: "Looking at what makes the world go around" makes Sodus very attractive, pubs, atmosphere, live bands and entertainment, eateries, sweet views...... (: and all within walking distance, heck I realize your ready for bed at 8pm but most of us are ready to soil our wild oats !!! Dam I want to stay their for 2 weeks next season. I have been there for 5 seasons, there were Kings every time and to date still holds the all time Pro/Am records for weight in a 24/fish 2 day event, this comparing all 4 events into consideration, that weight wasn't made up from anything but most of our favorite species....the KING
Tom
Title: Re: King Of The Lake Spring and Fall
Post by: Trannyman on October 06, 2012, 07:49:53 am
If you add another Canadian tournament that might favour the Ontario side.
I think what would make it fare to guys on both sides of the lake would be to add the ATOMMIK Invitational to the one day shootout format. For the Overall KOTL the two St Catharine 2 day events manditory and the 2 best of the 4 one day shootouts. Then the U.S. teams would have 2 and the Ontario teams would have 2 to compete in without crossing the Lake.
Just a thought. Al
P.S. Sodus, sounds interesting. 8) 8) ;) ;)
Title: Re: King Of The Lake Spring and Fall
Post by: getitwet on October 06, 2012, 10:01:40 am
Tom,
I have put a lot of thought into this and yes at the end of the suggestions prior to getting the decisions done i will address the overall group. The most important voice is our costumers that we have but we always wnat to get this group bigger.
a US tournament is interesting but difficult to get done due to the politics of each port. I also would like to see something in Olcott, Wilson, sodus, Rochester
Just thoughts
Title: Re: King Of The Lake Spring and Fall
Post by: chadk on October 06, 2012, 10:26:25 pm
Fishing usually good at Olcott, but the amenities are horrible. Considering the Canadian teams would be most likely driving their boats to port in order to compete.....with no car.....they would have limited access to places to stay, only one place to eat and NO gas station around to get munchies. Olcott is a bad choice IMO. Now Sodus.......that is a fun town. Nice beach. Nice amenities. Chimney Bluffs State Park is something you might see only out west in National Parks......etc.
Title: Re: King Of The Lake Spring and Fall
Post by: Yankee Troller on October 08, 2012, 10:12:08 am
Considering the Canadian teams would be most likely driving their boats to port in order to compete.....with no car.....they would have limited access to places to stay, only one place to eat and NO gas station around to get munchies.
We do this 4 times a yr. It's why we bought the 10 Meter. 4-5 guys live on her for the weekend when we go to Canada. Cool Canadians like our Observers, and Karl C have made it nice by bringing us things like Tim Hortons in the morning.
However, many people can't do this, and it does make it tough.
Yvan - toss out the WHI points then. You can have your 4 Canadian events to accumulate points, and if someone wants to fish American events there will always be at least the West end Pro Ams. I bet you'd pick up a few Canadian teams in the overall that aren't able to get in the US. ;D I can guarantee you wont pick up any American teams in the overall by adding one US tourney.
Title: Re: King Of The Lake Spring and Fall
Post by: Reel It Up on October 09, 2012, 11:22:41 am
Maybe consider a late registration lottery of sorts, you could do it at the captains meeting and announce some late entry's, maybe some small boats/teams may consider throwing their names into the hat. Kinda like you did this fall, but advertise that there will be some last minute entry's awarded and cap it.
Title: Re: King Of The Lake Spring and Fall
Post by: visionquest on October 18, 2012, 07:05:28 pm
Yvan,
I like the Spring and Fall in St. Kittys (2) required total
WHI (1) or (1) from Sodus (if it happens??) or A-TOM-MIK invitational: choose (1)
Pick one of the Tite Lines (1) not everyone can do both perhaps and keep it a choice. Choose (1)
So, a team can fish a maximum of 6 events and they can choose their best (4) showings with the spring/Fall in ST. Kittys mandatory. That allows some schedule flexibility for everyone and a good mix of Ports to choose from
Make all of the one day events 6 fish like they are and keep your 2-day events at 5 or chnage to 6 fish per day events.
Capt. Pete Vision Quest
Title: Re: King Of The Lake Spring and Fall
Post by: Trannyman on October 19, 2012, 03:44:39 am
I agree with Pete. Very fare to anglers on both sides of the Lake.
Al Team Rockets
Title: Re: King Of The Lake Spring and Fall
Post by: Yankee Troller on October 19, 2012, 08:03:07 am
I like the Spring and Fall in St. Kittys (2) required total
WHI (1) or (1) from Sodus (if it happens??) or A-TOM-MIK invitational: choose (1)
Pick one of the Tite Lines (1) not everyone can do both perhaps and keep it a choice. Choose (1)
So, a team can fish a maximum of 6 events and they can choose their best (4) showings with the spring/Fall in ST. Kittys mandatory. That allows some schedule flexibility for everyone and a good mix of Ports to choose from
Make all of the one day events 6 fish like they are and keep your 2-day events at 5 or chnage to 6 fish per day events.
Capt. Pete Vision Quest
Pete....if you were to do this then wouldn't you have to go to a points system to make it fair? Different class fish and size of fish at all those one days would skew the weights. So someone who picks the "right" ports could take the cup.
Oh yea, thanks for ignoring my phone call a few weeks back and not calling me back! ;D
Title: Re: King Of The Lake Spring and Fall
Post by: salmonella on October 31, 2012, 04:57:21 pm
Does anyone know when the deposit is due for the June Tight Lines? We want to make sure we don't miss the date. Thanks.
Title: King Of The Lake Spring and Fall
Post by: Digby on October 31, 2012, 05:43:34 pm
Was told no deposit moving forward. Paid in full upfront!
Title: Re: King Of The Lake Spring and Fall
Post by: visionquest on November 01, 2012, 01:54:55 pm
Rick,
LOL, I was fighting a fish when you called me. You did not leave a message to call you back so I wondered if it was an accidental call or ? (then I forgot)
Good point on the adoption of a point system vs. a collective weight system. I did not address that in my post but agree that a point system would "level" it out esp. when considering a team may be only able to fish a June T.L. event and a WHI event vs. the latter Aug. T.L. and proposed summer event. Fish should be larger and would provide an advantage. If it goes to a point system, I would hope it is a simple one. Excellent thought.
Capt. Pete Vision Quest
Title: Re: King Of The Lake Spring and Fall
Post by: barts on November 02, 2012, 02:36:11 am
Maybe only a full box average over the top 4 events
Title: Re: King Of The Lake Spring and Fall
Post by: Yankee Troller on November 02, 2012, 07:52:32 am
LOL, I was fighting a fish when you called me. You did not leave a message to call you back so I wondered if it was an accidental call or ? (then I forgot)
Good point on the adoption of a point system vs. a collective weight system. I did not address that in my post but agree that a point system would "level" it out esp. when considering a team may be only able to fish a June T.L. event and a WHI event vs. the latter Aug. T.L. and proposed summer event. Fish should be larger and would provide an advantage. If it goes to a point system, I would hope it is a simple one. Excellent thought.
Capt. Pete Vision Quest
Whatever dude! I'm coming to your seminar and steeling all your secrets to use against you!
Title: Re: King Of The Lake Spring and Fall
Post by: thrillseeker on November 23, 2012, 03:28:42 pm
Great thread. Our team would like to see the 2 day result payout the major prizes, but have a decent cash prize for "Big Box" each day. What this does is keeps an unfortunate team(DQ-breakdown, family emergency, ect) "in the game". I think in 2008, there was a $1500 big box prize each day. If a newer team has a big day but doesn't make the money, this will bring them back again and encourage them to compete. If a team beats the field both days, they will deservedly pad their 1st place winnings. As mentioned in several threads, awards ceremonies are important, especially when a newer team cracks the top ten. Yes, everyone's in a hurry to get "outta dodge", but teams don't deserve a "bum rush" while the stage is being torn down. The sponsors appreciate a bigger deal as well. Perhaps looking at fishing Fri/Sat(with Sun only used as blow day) could make a Sat afternoon awards less rushed, and also lessen the chance of a "one dayer" or complete wipeout. The big fish prizes could be run during the event. This would make the teams happy that don't like to "show their hand" a day early, and also prevent many fish from being harvested just for the big fish prize. Something to consider. Whatever the fleet wants as for format, 5,6,12 fish is fine with us. A two day format is superior in crowning a winner. However it is decided the KOTL scores will be determined, it needs to be done soon, as well as setting the dates. Thanks for soliciting the players input.
Title: Re: King Of The Lake Spring and Fall
Post by: darkfisher on November 23, 2012, 03:45:01 pm
Well said Thrillseeker. Sounds great.
Title: Re: King Of The Lake Spring and Fall
Post by: barts on December 05, 2012, 05:55:25 am
The dates would be awesome, We have some guys with long term work schedules that need to take it off. And I have a wife who wants to vacation and I wont let her book till the dates come out...lol.
Title: Re: King Of The Lake Spring and Fall
Post by: Witching Hour on December 05, 2012, 06:34:16 am
...but have a decent cash prize for "Big Box" each day. What this does is keeps an unfortunate team(DQ-breakdown, family emergency, ect) "in the game".
Love it Thrillseeker! First thing that came to mind for me there was Team Pressman last spring. Day 1 not to be / Day 2 amazing! A team could '$hit the bed' / breakdown on day 1, and come in day 2 with their heads held high! Might give a team more hope for day 2 instead of walking away on day 1 to the whisky bar! LOL.
On a side note: I personally love everything about the format of the 333. Weighing only 3 of the biggest fish for day 1 and 2 (5 might be better but another topic). I think what I like so much is that element of 'what are we going to do' for day 1 ... weigh 1/2/or all fish in ... don't weigh any in (go for broke on day 2) ... the teams all seem to come together to make the decision ... really makes the day 2 interesting. Potentially helps the stocks too ... reduce kill ratio.
I think the KOTL series could benefit tremendously by a media element (like the 333). That exposure took that tournament fishing scene to a whole other level. And Lake Ontario is IMO a better fishery. A camera crew could be on some featured boats + weigh ins. It would certainly sky rocket the tournament sponsorship/exposure. A friend of mine is an independant producer/movie maker/camera guy (http://russdejong.com/). All it would take is a guy like this (with the gear/experience) ... not sure how the business works but he may consider doing the work for for free with hopes of it going onto say WFN/the KOTL site/ect for commisson.
Title: Re: King Of The Lake Spring and Fall
Post by: creatureofhabit on December 11, 2012, 01:22:12 pm
Any developments as to rules changes, format for 2013 or finalized dates?
Title: Re: King Of The Lake Spring and Fall
Post by: get it wet on December 14, 2012, 10:37:31 am
Dates are as follows
April -26,27,28 St. Catharines May - 11 wilson june - 15 tightlines august 3 tightlines august30,31,sept 1st catharines
Some format. Last yr went real well. We are bringing back the bbq and raffles to add things to the event as in the past. This has been in demand for a few yrs now and its time to re introduce.
The overall is the same 4/5 with the 2 St. Catharines mandatory but will decide on scoring in the next week. Really torn with a point system on placement or on weight.. Will follow up on this in a bit.
If anyone wishes to get into overall and have not yet fished it please shoot me an email or pm as to request in order to get you at the top of the list to get in some of these events. We will do our best!
thanks
Title: Re: King Of The Lake Spring and Fall
Post by: get it wet on December 14, 2012, 11:33:59 pm
Same costs as last yr
600 for tourney and 50 for bff
2 weeks prior online registration
thx
Title: Re: King Of The Lake Spring and Fall
Post by: FishAbout on December 15, 2012, 11:44:27 am
Is there spose to be more teams in the KOTL tournys this year. Whatever happenend to lowering the entry fee for this year to get more teams. The entry fee has been going up the last few years but the pay out has been less. Why ask people on how to get new teams fishing and make a better tourny if you do not want change anything. Anyways this is my thought, I will still fish these tournys but would rather see more teams.
Title: Re: King Of The Lake Spring and Fall
Post by: get it wet on December 15, 2012, 05:56:03 pm
Fishabout
The idea behind the discussion was to get feedback on how to improve the tournament and not so much get new teams. My goal has always been to get more teams in the overall aspect because then all tournemnents would grow.
To clarify, our entry fees have stayed the same for 4 yrs now and payouts have remained the same in that same time frame with the exeption of a trial run one fall with DEX TV
We all would like to see more teams but with all discussions and timeframes on tournaments going on, We believed this to go ahead for another yr before making drastic changes.
Cant please everybody to 100% but we can all agree it went well last yr.
Great Lakes Tackle (pete Alex) has donated $2000 and trophies to enhance the overall prize this yr. We are greatful to have this to add to the all ready prestigious prize of being the King Of The Lake.
I am anticipating a few new teams to compete and am excited for the upcoming season
Title: Re: King Of The Lake Spring and Fall
Post by: get it wet on January 04, 2013, 11:19:00 am
So far 24 ft is the only criteria. We don't have captain licenses here. but here is my theory.
If a charter guy sandbags an am tournament in a 3 fish tournament to save his team 400 bucks in entry he is not too much of a charter guy. I also know some guys that do it as a write off and don't even fish often enough to matter and this is why a 3 fish limit is cool with this as anyone can catch 3 kings to compete.
This is really to get people that have never joined us hopefully bridge the gap and get them involved.
With all the tournaments going high ticket to enter and the pro ams faltering a little this could very well be a good avenue to set up a farm system to breed new teams.
How many teams will catch 10 kings in their day and think.... I wish I would have fish the pro division!!
Scoring
Instead of changing the world all in one yr we have decided to keep scoring the same way. you can throw out 1 of the one days but you don't get an extra 10 points for fishing all. We found last yr was a huge advantage to throw one score out without giving them an extra 10.
We are bringing back some draw prizes as in the past, we have been asked to do that by a lot of people and we are not going to have a beer tent but will have BBQ available with pop and water in a tent as we used to have.
Hope this works
Title: Re: King Of The Lake Spring and Fall
Post by: get it wet on November 26, 2013, 11:37:01 am
Hey guys
Hope all is well. Here are the dates for 2014. Things went well in 2013 with participation being the best its been in 6-7 yrs. I am pleased the energy this series brings to the lake. Tournaments on Lake Ontario are thriving and driving the fishery these days and I am proud to be part of it.
April - 25-26-27 - St Catharines KOTL May - 10 - Wilson Invitational June - 14 - Tightline shootout Aug - 2 - Tightline Shoootout Aug - 29-30-31 - St Catharines KOTL
Hopefully this works for you guys. We all try to make things better individually but changes sometimes are not needed This series is now been running for many yrs and St Catharines Spring event is going in its 15th yr. Crazy how time flies and how old I'm getting lol Go get Ready!! Spring is around the corner!! Yvan
Title: Re: King Of The Lake Spring and Fall
Post by: Yankee Troller on November 26, 2013, 11:58:36 am
Sweet! Thanks Yvan!
Title: Re: King Of The Lake Spring and Fall
Post by: JustinB777 on November 26, 2013, 07:55:42 pm
Thx yvan, gonna be a great tourney season! April can't come fast enough!